Salaam Hasib. Thank you for your thoughts. You should know though that the command and example to memorize is for all the books. In the Taurat, it is commanded that “These commandments that I (Allah) give you today are to be upon your hearts … Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads” (Deuteronomy 6:6-8). In the Zabur it says “I have hidden Your Word in my heart that I might not sin against you” (Psalm 119:11). And Isa Al Masih, when tempted by the Devil quoted scripture – meaning he had memorized it previously. So these commands and examples are there for the previous Books as well. Of course I am familiar with examples and commands to memorize the Qur’an. So, taken all together this illustrates the principle given in Qur’an that (Surat 2:285) “We make no distinction between one and another of his apostles” You can see a more detailed thought on this in my article al-injil.net/blog/2012/06/01/does-the-quran-replace-the-bible-what-does-the-quran-say’

Blessings to you

Thank you so much for your comment. Truly it is a privilege for us in this day of much evil to discuss and learn about the Books. You should know something about the books of Taurat, Zabur and Injil though. Each of these books (which make up the Bible) are themselves composed of several books. THey are like libraries each containing many Holy Books. And each of these books were also ‘sent as one’ and not just for each prophet but for all peoples. For example, in my recently posted Sign of Ibrahim Part 3 we look at the sacrifice of his son and we see that in that book of the Taurat (the book of Genesis) written by Musa that there is a promise for all nations. It says “and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.” (Genesis 22:18) (the post is here). In Zabur (which we have not looked at yet) Dawood writes about ‘all nations’ in Psalm 2. In the Injil, Isa al Masih – at the end of Matthew says “… Therefore go and make disciples of all nations …”. So the scope is always universal to all nations.

As to whether ‘alot of changes were made’ I know that this is a point of debate. But not for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). I show in the post about Sunnah (http://injil.xyz/blog/2012/04/24/the-injil-corrupted-what-does-the-sunnah-say) that there are haddith that clearly tell us that he viewed these books as true. There are haddith where he says expresses his belief in Taurat that existed in his day. And we know from the science of textual criticism that the books have not changed since his day. In fact the scientific study of textual criticism strongly supports that the Bible has not at all been corrupted. And these are for scientific reasons, not religious. Please see my article at http://injil.xyz/blog/2012/07/31/the-science-of-textual-criticism-to-see-if-the-bible-is-corrupted-or-not/ and see my video in that article for more information. This topic is too important to let rumour and hearsay determine what we believe. We need to base our verdict on evidence.

Salam Saleh

I think you are referring to this ayah which I have copied from Yusuf ali

“Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected
Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed
and persisted in excesses. 5:81

But notice why they are cursed. It is because they ‘disobeyed’. The ayah you refer to says nothing about the Jews ‘altering the words’ as you say. I don’t deny that you believe that they altered the words, but you must be getting this belief from something else, and this something else is causing you to read this into this ayah because in point of fact it says nothing about them ‘altering words’ But you are correct in that they did receive Curses and Blessings. You can read here what these were.

Salaam again Saleh
Now I do not claim to be an expert on the Qur’an. But I am a student of it and I do read it carefully. So I will repeat your first statements and just follow with some quotes that I know from Qur’an.
You say
“The Glorious Quran mention
1. That the Israelites were NOT descended from Abraham [P]. The Bible says otherwise.”
So you say, that the Qur’an says that Israelites are not from Abraham (pbuh). But the Qur’an says:
003.093 All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: “Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth.”

You will see here that the ‘children of Israel’ are that because they come from a man called ‘Israel’. Who was he? We know he came before Moses (Musa – pbuh) who gave the Book (Taurat) to the same children of Israel (these ayat just below)

017.002 We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): “Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs.”

So who was the man Israel from whom the children of Israel came? It says below. It starts with Adam (pbuh). One of the descendants of Adam was Noah (pbuh) and one of the descendants of Noah was Abraham (pbuh). And one of the descendants (his grandson) was Israel (through Abraham’s son Isaac. So it went Abraham -> Isaac ->Israel). Thus the children of Israel must be descendants of Abraham. The next ayah says that Jesus (Isa –pbuh) spoke to the ‘Children of Israel’. But we also know that he spoke to the Jews. That is because Jews are the Children of Israel. They mean the same like the words ‘man’ and ‘adult human male’ mean the same thing.

019.058 Those were some of the prophets on whom God did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (God) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
061.014 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, “Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?” Said the disciples, “We are God’s helpers!” then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.

So how is Israel coming from Abraham through Isaac? Most think it is Jacob as it says in ayah below

002.132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; “Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam.”

002.133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: “What will ye worship after me?” They said: “We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma’il and Isaac,- the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam).”

So Jacob is descended from Abraham and so is Israel. Why? After an encounter with God Jacob was given another name – Israel. So Jacob = Israel. They are the same person. We see this in the story of Joseph (Yusuf- pbuh). He went to Egypt and the Qur’an tells us that he had a conversation with his father (Jacob) who was descendant of Abraham. Please read.

012.004 Behold! Joseph said to his father: “O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves to me!”
012.005 Said (the father): “My (dear) little son! relate not thy vision to thy brothers, lest they concoct a plot against thee: for Satan is to man an avowed enemy!
012.006 “Thus will thy Lord choose thee and teach thee the interpretation of stories (and events) and perfect His favour to thee and to the posterity of Jacob – even as He perfected it to thy fathers Abraham and Isaac aforetime! for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.”

These ayat talk about the ‘posterity of Jacob’ That is exactly the same as ‘children of Israel’. With Joseph the Children of Israel moved to Egypt and much later the prophet Moses (Musa – pbuh) led them out of Egypt and gave them the Law (Taurat). All this shows that the Children of Israel are in fact affirmed by the Qur’an to be descendants of Abraham.

Now speaking of Egypt your point 2 is:
You say
“The Glorious Quran mention …
2. That the Israelites were enslaved by the Babylonians and not Egytian.”
But the Qur’an says

010.087 We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: “Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!”
010.088 Moses prayed: “Our Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and wealth in the life of the present, and so, Our Lord, they mislead (men) from Thy Path. Deface our Lord, the features of their wealth, and send hardness to their hearts, so they will not believe until they see the grievous penalty.”

043.051 And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people, saying: “O my people! Does not the dominion of Egypt belong to me, (witness) these streams flowing underneath my (palace)? What! see ye not then?
043.052 “Am I not better than this (Moses), who is a contemptible wretch and can scarcely express himself clearly?

002.047 Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message)….
002.049 And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

010.090 We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: “I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to God in Islam).”

017.101 To Moses We did give Nine Clear Sings: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: “O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!

020.078 Then Pharaoh pursued them with his forces, but the waters completely overwhelmed them and covered them up.
020.079 Pharaoh led his people astray instead of leading them aright.

020.080 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you on the right side of Mount (Sinai), and We sent down to you Manna and quails:

044.030 We did deliver aforetime the Children of Israel from humiliating Punishment,
044.031 Inflicted by Pharaoh, for he was arrogant (even) among inordinate transgressors.

So actually I am not sure why you are trying to insist that the Qur’an teaches that Children of Israel are not from Abraham and these Israelites were not in Egypt. These questions should not be confusing because the Qur’an is quite clear about them. And these teachings agree exactly with the Taurat in al kitab.
May I encourage you to read the “Signs from Taurat-Qur’an”. This will help inform you straight from the Books so you can be informed of these things. There is nothing for you to lose in that.
These signs cover many of these points and will give a good historical background in what the Books teach about the time of Abraham (pbuh), Musa (pbuh) and the other prophets from this period.

Thank you for taking the time to leave your comment. I understand that we all ‘believe’ certain things. But often what we ‘believe’ does not come from the Book. I do answer this very question you raise in my article on whether the injil of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is the original. I would encourage you to read it. I have no desire to force a change in anyone’s beliefs but to create opportunities to gain understanding and become informed. THen, whatever ‘beliefs’ one has are built on a more secure foundation. I hope you will read this article.

Salaam Syeed
Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough comment. (And sorry for delayed reply). I understand you to say that you agree with my point except for these ayat you quoted which (at first sight) might seem to contradict my thesis – that the Qur’an affirms al kitab. So may I proceed to examine the ayat which you have quoted.

1) Ali-Imran 187 : And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it(!); but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!

This ayah is referring to when the Israelites received their ‘covenant’. I cover this in my post on Musa and Law We both know that both Qur’an and Taurat tell us what happened when prophet Musa (pbuh) received the covenant. While he was up Sinai the Israelites made and worshiped the Golden Calf. This was a grievous sin! And this was a ‘vile bargain’ as the ayah says. But the sin was not corrupting or changing the scripture. The sin was disobeying and idolatry. We know the scripture was not corrupted then because prophet Musa made another copy of the covenant. Sin – yes! Terrible failure – yes! Corruption and loss of covenant from Allah – No!

2) Baqara 146: ‘The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth(!) which they themselves know.’

In the ayat just preceeding (142-144) we see that the subject is about Qibla, when it changed from Jerusalem to Kaaba, not about ‘the Book’. So this is talking about the Jews in Medina who were not believing/following the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). And thus, this is talking about the events in Arabia in years 620-630 AD. And this is hundreds of years after the al Kitab was established, copied and spread around the world. If you look on my post on science of textual criticism you will see that by the year 630 AD there were hundreds of copies of al kitab all around ancient world. Dead Sea Scrolls of Taurat and Zabur were made 200 BC. So this ayah, is not talking about changing or corrupting al kitab, but about the specific Jews in Medina who did not believe prophet Muhammad (Pbuh)

3) Baqara 79: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands(!), and then say:”This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This ayah is also about the same thing – the Jews of Medina who did not believe Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Baqara 76 says “Behold when they meet the men of Faith they say ‘We Believe’, but when the meet each other in private they say “Shall you tell them what God has revealed to you that they may engage you in argument about it …” In other words the Jews of Medina publicly said they believed (in Muhammad being a prophet) but then amongst themselves said other things. Yusuf Ali commentary says about this whole passage (in particular ayah 78) in footnote #84 “The argument is continued. The Jews (of Medina) wanted to keep back knowledge, but what knowledge had they? Many of them, even if they could read, were no better than illiterates, for they knew not their own true Scriptures, but read into them what they wanted, or at best their own conjectures. They palmed off their own writings for the Message of God..” In other words, this has nothing to do with whether al kitab was written by ‘their own hands’, for that had already been written down hundreds of years before time of Muhammad (pbuh). Like at time of Isa the Jews did not know their own scriptures (Taurat & Zabur) and instead had their own traditions – Talmud, mishna etc. which never was inspired by God.

4) Maida 13: But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places(!) and forget(!) a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

This is referring to the failure of Israelites to keep their Covenant. I cover this in Curses of Taurat. They were Cursed, as I show, but their scriptures were never cursed. And that is a big difference. Yusuf Ali comments on this with (footnote #712) “Cursed them – that means that because of the breach of their Covenant, God withdrew His overflowing Grace from them. The withdrawal of Grace made their hearts grow hard in two ways: 1) they were no longer protected from assaults of evil, 2) they became impervious even to the message of forgiveness and mercy which is open to all God’s creatures”. I could not agree more. But that says nothing about corrupting/changing/cursing of al kitab. Because those messages always belonged to God, they never ‘belonged’ to the people, even if they were sent to the people.

5) Baqara 42 :And cover not Truth with falsehood(!), nor conceal the Truth(!) when ye know (what it is).

This is again speaking to the Jews of Medina who did not believe the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This is not at all about how they corrupted/changed etc. the writings that were put down hundreds of years before that time. 41 says “And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you” The contention of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was that the revelation he received ‘confirmed’(!!!) the revelation that was ‘with’ (so in 620 AD what was the book that the Jews had? It was Taurat and Zabur exactly as we have today. This was what was ‘with’ the Jews of that day. See my post on textual criticism). This whole passage, if you read it in context argues for the integrity of Taurat. The ‘falsehood’ that is being covered here is the rejection of the Jews of Medina of the revelation of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Again, Yusuf Ali agrees with me. He says (footnote #59) “ You received revelations before (ie Taurat), now comes one confirming it; its first appeal should be to you (Jews of Medina); are you to be first to reject it…”

So when you read the passages you quote in full they either are talking about Jews of Medina and their falsehoods, or the Jews failure to keep or obey the covenant. But not keeping something is not the same thing as changing it. Isa (pbuh) many times accused the Jews of not following the Law, but never once of changing it. I think that after reviewing these ayat my thesis stands – and you did say that my would be true if not for these ayat.:)

Amima
Thank you for your well-thought out comments. And I understand what you are saying. I started this blog to have a forum or safe place where these ideas, questions and concerns could honestly be discussed. If you look at my article on the Counsellor you will see that Isa (pbuh) promised that the disciples would receive guidance. So I do not think it is correct to say that each ‘wrote the gospel as he understood it’. When you think of it, most of the gospel is a recording of what Isa said and did, not a theological treatise. What was required was memory. This is exactly the same as is required in the hadith. Hadith are here because some people remembered what the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said and did. If you accept in principle the idea of hadith then you must, in principle, accept the idea of eye-witness accounts of what Jesus (pbuh) said and did. Now there are some differences between the 4 gospels. But differences are not the same as contradictions. In my article on why 4 gospels for 1 injil I mention that the account of adam is found 2 times in Quran. It is found in Surah 7 and in Surah 20. They are slightly different. But they do not contradict, only add to each other to give a fuller description of what happened. If you accept 2 accounts of Adam in Quran then in principle one must also accept multiple accounts in al kitab.

I have studied Cow 75-79, and studied Yusuf Ali footnotes on it. This ayah is not about the writing of the al kitab. Rather is about the Jews of Medina who did not believe Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Baqara 76 says “Behold when they meet the men of Faith they say ‘We Believe’, but when the meet each other in private they say “Shall you tell them what God has revealed to you that they may engage you in argument about it …” In other words the Jews of Medina publicly said they believed (in Muhammad being a prophet) but then amongst themselves said other things. Yusuf Ali commentary says about this whole passage (in particular ayah 78) in footnote #84 “The argument is continued. The Jews (of Medina) wanted to keep back knowledge, but what knowledge had they? Many of them, even if they could read, were no better than illiterates, for they knew not their own true Scriptures, but read into them what they wanted, or at best their own conjectures. They palmed off their own writings for the Message of God..” In other words, this has nothing to do with whether al kitab was written by ‘their own hands’, for that had already been written down hundreds of years before time of Muhammad (pbuh).

So we see some of these things differently, but thanks again for your input and feel free to keep reading articles without feeling obligated to agree with me. We may not see eye-to-eye on all interpretations but we have a spirit of seeking for truth and that can only be done by both you and me exposing ourselves to ideas that seem different.

Allahs blessings to you